Re: [spiers] Labor conditions
On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:35:58 -0700, Paul Snyder
wrote :
... it sounds like there is free will being exercised
> by the workers....
Which is rather the salient point... do people freely enter this employment? If
so, then we are
hardly in a position to criticize, let alone reject... One may argue that a
given system is rigged,
and therefore the best possible job, freely chosen, is nonetheless highly
exploitative.
If so, that is their problem to sort out with their government. People can and
do throw the
crooks out, such as Duvalier, Marcos, the Shah etc. (indeed, the shah was our
puppet like
saddam hussein, and the people ousted the shah... I think we ought to have
waited for iraqis to
dipose of saddam).
And it is getting harder to compare wages when yet another airline, this time
Delta, spurns its
pension responsibilities. If pensions will not be paid, then people never were
earning what they
thought. One way or another, in time all pensions will be bust, the best we can
hope for is they
bust them in an orderly manner.
In the meantime, the chinese observe and adapt.
John
Monday, June 19, 2006
Labor conditions
Labor conditions
Re: [spiers] Labor conditions
After reading the article, I called my partner in HK, who operates an
electronic toy factory in Shenzhen. I asked what the labor rates are
right now. He indicates that they are 400 - 700 RMB per month,
depending on a variety of factors, which is 50 - 90 USD, for 40 hrs/
week. Overtime is 1.5 times base rate. I have visited his factory
which seems relatively pleasant, workers were smiling. They are
provided dormitories (2 people per bed, so they sleep alternate
shifts), and food and medical care. They are not allowed to charge
for the fringe benefits, but some factories try to sell "tickets" to
the workers to offset the costs. There are labor laws governing the
labor rates, and if a company tries to charge too low (ahem), then
any worker can complain and have it addressed (tho I don't know how
easy that is to do). He also mentioned that the working conditions
and fringes are the variables that attract workers, the demand is
sometimes high and so they adjust the fringes in order to attract
workers. It sounds like the "loophole" that accommodates supply/
demand variations in an economic system with standard labor rates.
So while none of the readers will want to hop a plane to work in one
of these factories, it sounds like there is free will being exercised
by the workers. Conditions no doubt vary over the country, but this
is a data point.
A related anecdote, is that about 10 years ago, whenever that Kathy
Lee Gifford clothing fiasco uncovered child labor, a foreign news
team converged on my partner's factory. They got an interpreter and
started walking their cameraman up and down the rows of cherubic
faces under hairnets on the factory lines. 'How old are you?' they
asked each one. "28", "25", "27", .... and so on.
On Jun 19, 2006, at 5:01 PM, John Spiers wrote:
> Well, yes...simple...visit the factory... so far, it strikes me
> that China is using precisely the
> means the UK and USA used to move from pre-industrial to industrial
> society, just faster.
> One of the purposes of the WTO is to ensure China and other
> developing countries never
> make it to the fully industrialized stage, by forbidding the
> Chinese and others the means we
> used.
>
> As to Chairman Mao, he no doubt would have had the scoundrels shot,
> because he did not
> care for competition. Tens of millions we enslaved in maoist work
> camps, so even if the
> stories today are true (and I doubt it) this is a huge improvement.
>
> As to "no recourse," things are far more complex than that in
> China, and people have ways of
> extracting justice. When last in china I read about labor
> shortages, not enough skilled labor
> to go around. hard to burn workers when there is a shortage of
> workers.
>
> John
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:08:37 -0000, "mgranich"
> wrote :
>
>>
>> John, are you or any other importers on the list, concerned about the
>> conditions at the factory where your imported products are produced?
>>
>> I read this article on the BBC,
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5079590.stm
>>
>> Apple ipods may be produced in sweatshop conditions. Workers work 15
>> hours per day and get paid $50/month.
>>
>> Then, I saw a show on PBS about China....I think it was Frontline but
>> I can't remember. The show interviewed a professor at UC Berkley
>> (Born in Hong Kong) who has studied Chinese labor for 25 years. She
>> conveyed a story about migrant construction workers getting paid once
>> a year. The shocking thing was (at least for me) that the worker is
>> paid at the discretion of the construction foreman. If the foreman
>> says "Get lost! I'm not paying you.", the worker has no recourse, he
>> gets nothing. He basically worked the whole year for food and
>> water....a slave. Do such arrangements happen in manufacturing in
>> China? What would Chairman Mao say?
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, John is turning me into a free trade apostle.
>> But I want my designs to bring people opportunity (while fattening my
>> bank account) not add to their plight. That sounds Pollyanna'ish, I
>> know…can't help it.
>>
>> Anthony
Mag Lev and China
Re: [spiers] Medical outsourcing
Hi Paul,
I remember the segment you saw on tv. It was on the Newshour last year.
Here's the link to the video of the story. The story should also cite
India as another example as well:
http://vvi.onstreammedia.com/cgi-bin/visearch?user=pbs-newshour&template=templat\
e.html&query=Traveling+to+Thailand+for+Treatment&keywords=Traveling+to+Thailand+\
for+Treatment&category=blank
It sounds like fun! ;-) (even though I wouldn't want to be sick)
Take care,
Victor
--- John Spiers
> while I await her to deign a reply, have you checked google...
> interesting on how far this has
> already gone... also, any dentists out there thought of offering a QC
> service for dentisits and
> medicine worldwide? I know it is already being done, but the market
> will no doubt get huge.
>
> John
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:36:16 -0700 (PDT), linda williams
>
> wrote :
>
> >
> > Hello John,
> >
> > I will be in Malaysia for about four months Sep - Dec. I was
> going to have dental implants
> done in Malaysia, (all I want for Xmas is my two front teeth!) but
> since your sister already
> knows an excellent Dentist in Thailand, would you mind sharing Dr's
> name and contact info?
> >
> > Thank you
> > Nurlinda
> >
> >
> > John Spiers
> > Yes, he Thais are moviing up fast in medicine... a partner of
> mine in Hong Kong has
> cancer of
> > the tongue, and chose a hospital in Thailand to take care of it. He
> could afford just about
> any
> > doctor anywhere, but he chose the best, who happened to be cheap.
> >
> > My mother got dinged $250 for a one block ambulance ride, required
> if the insurance was
> to
> > cover her hospital spell. It took four hours to arrange. Well, very
> quickly round trip airfare
> > and hotel starts to look cheap compared to USA, where we pay more
> for everything.
> >
> > I have a sister and bro-in-law in Thailand, working on Thai oil
> projects (with oil at $60/
> > barrel, everyone has oil reserves... hmmm... how come as more oil
> comes up out of the
> > ground, price does not go down? Interference somewhere...) Anyway,
> they have all their
> > medical stuff done there, and my sister flew my nephew out to have
> some dental work
> done
> > in thailand. Why, if something is not done about this trend, we
> might see reform of
> medicine
> > in USA!
> >
> > When the Soviets built the Berlin Wall, they said it was to keep
> the criminals (capitalists) out
> of
> > the socialist paradise. Of course, the Wall was really meant to
> keep the eastern europeans
> > locked in.
> >
> > By the way, how is that wall along the Mexican border coming along?
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:29:03 -0700, Paul Snyder
> > wrote :
> >
> > >
> > > I just picked up an old issue of Newsweek magazine, I think it
> was
> > > dated May. Much to my surprise and pleasure, they reported on a
> > > variety of medical outsourcing firms, which has been an
> intermittent
> > > topic in this forum. Apparently, there are already companies in
> the
> > > States that coordinate the entire process, travel, hospital,
> hotel
> > > afterwards, flights, and any insurance processing. I was
> surprised
> > > that Thailand's Bumrangrad hospital has increased their menu
> beyond
> > > boob jobs (which I heard about sometime back - not for myself -
> mine
> > > are large enough) to include joint replacement and angioplasty!
> The
> > > other players mentioned are India and Singapore. One point
> mentioned
> > > is the fact that those countries have no laws protecting the
> patient
> > > against malpractice. Interesting - I suppose quality and
> reputation
> > > will determine success of these hospitals. Hmmmm, there's an
> idea.....
> > >
> > > But what really caught my eye was a self-insured medium-sized
> company
> > > in the States (in an unrelated business) that incentivizes their
> > > employees by offering them over $1000 if they get sick and fly to
>
> > > India (with their partner) to get treated, but no incentive if
> they
> > > go to Blue Cross. The company wins, and the employee profits. And
>
> > > the couple gets a vacation break as part of the deal.
> > >
> > > So I am very encouraged that there will be a solution offered to
> the
> > > American health-care idiocy.
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul Snyder
> > > psnyder@alumni.caltech.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Compete on Design!
> >
> > www.johnspiers.com
Mag Lev and China
Re: [spiers] Medical outsourcing
while I await her to deign a reply, have you checked google... interesting on
how far this has
already gone... also, any dentists out there thought of offering a QC service
for dentisits and
medicine worldwide? I know it is already being done, but the market will no
doubt get huge.
John
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:36:16 -0700 (PDT), linda williams
wrote :
>
> Hello John,
>
> I will be in Malaysia for about four months Sep - Dec. I was going to have
dental implants
done in Malaysia, (all I want for Xmas is my two front teeth!) but since your
sister already
knows an excellent Dentist in Thailand, would you mind sharing Dr's name and
contact info?
>
> Thank you
> Nurlinda
>
>
> John Spiers
> Yes, he Thais are moviing up fast in medicine... a partner of mine in Hong
Kong has
cancer of
> the tongue, and chose a hospital in Thailand to take care of it. He could
afford just about
any
> doctor anywhere, but he chose the best, who happened to be cheap.
>
> My mother got dinged $250 for a one block ambulance ride, required if the
insurance was
to
> cover her hospital spell. It took four hours to arrange. Well, very quickly
round trip airfare
> and hotel starts to look cheap compared to USA, where we pay more for
everything.
>
> I have a sister and bro-in-law in Thailand, working on Thai oil projects (with
oil at $60/
> barrel, everyone has oil reserves... hmmm... how come as more oil comes up out
of the
> ground, price does not go down? Interference somewhere...) Anyway, they have
all their
> medical stuff done there, and my sister flew my nephew out to have some dental
work
done
> in thailand. Why, if something is not done about this trend, we might see
reform of
medicine
> in USA!
>
> When the Soviets built the Berlin Wall, they said it was to keep the criminals
(capitalists) out
of
> the socialist paradise. Of course, the Wall was really meant to keep the
eastern europeans
> locked in.
>
> By the way, how is that wall along the Mexican border coming along?
>
> John
>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:29:03 -0700, Paul Snyder
> wrote :
>
> >
> > I just picked up an old issue of Newsweek magazine, I think it was
> > dated May. Much to my surprise and pleasure, they reported on a
> > variety of medical outsourcing firms, which has been an intermittent
> > topic in this forum. Apparently, there are already companies in the
> > States that coordinate the entire process, travel, hospital, hotel
> > afterwards, flights, and any insurance processing. I was surprised
> > that Thailand's Bumrangrad hospital has increased their menu beyond
> > boob jobs (which I heard about sometime back - not for myself - mine
> > are large enough) to include joint replacement and angioplasty! The
> > other players mentioned are India and Singapore. One point mentioned
> > is the fact that those countries have no laws protecting the patient
> > against malpractice. Interesting - I suppose quality and reputation
> > will determine success of these hospitals. Hmmmm, there's an idea.....
> >
> > But what really caught my eye was a self-insured medium-sized company
> > in the States (in an unrelated business) that incentivizes their
> > employees by offering them over $1000 if they get sick and fly to
> > India (with their partner) to get treated, but no incentive if they
> > go to Blue Cross. The company wins, and the employee profits. And
> > the couple gets a vacation break as part of the deal.
> >
> > So I am very encouraged that there will be a solution offered to the
> > American health-care idiocy.
> >
> >
> > Paul Snyder
> > psnyder@alumni.caltech.edu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Compete on Design!
>
> www.johnspiers.com
Labor conditions
Re: [spiers] Labor conditions
Well, yes...simple...visit the factory... so far, it strikes me that China is
using precisely the
means the UK and USA used to move from pre-industrial to industrial society,
just faster.
One of the purposes of the WTO is to ensure China and other developing countries
never
make it to the fully industrialized stage, by forbidding the Chinese and others
the means we
used.
As to Chairman Mao, he no doubt would have had the scoundrels shot, because he
did not
care for competition. Tens of millions we enslaved in maoist work camps, so
even if the
stories today are true (and I doubt it) this is a huge improvement.
As to "no recourse," things are far more complex than that in China, and people
have ways of
extracting justice. When last in china I read about labor shortages, not enough
skilled labor
to go around. hard to burn workers when there is a shortage of workers.
John
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:08:37 -0000, "mgranich"
>
> John, are you or any other importers on the list, concerned about the
> conditions at the factory where your imported products are produced?
>
> I read this article on the BBC,
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5079590.stm
>
> Apple ipods may be produced in sweatshop conditions. Workers work 15
> hours per day and get paid $50/month.
>
> Then, I saw a show on PBS about China....I think it was Frontline but
> I can't remember. The show interviewed a professor at UC Berkley
> (Born in Hong Kong) who has studied Chinese labor for 25 years. She
> conveyed a story about migrant construction workers getting paid once
> a year. The shocking thing was (at least for me) that the worker is
> paid at the discretion of the construction foreman. If the foreman
> says "Get lost! I'm not paying you.", the worker has no recourse, he
> gets nothing. He basically worked the whole year for food and
> water....a slave. Do such arrangements happen in manufacturing in
> China? What would Chairman Mao say?
>
> Don't get me wrong, John is turning me into a free trade apostle.
> But I want my designs to bring people opportunity (while fattening my
> bank account) not add to their plight. That sounds Pollyanna'ish, I
> know…can't help it.
>
> Anthony
Mag Lev and China
Re: [spiers] Medical outsourcing
I see one problem with these plans, in two variations...
The problem is ultimately, it leaves the definition of "medicine" in the hands
of politicians,
and their henchmen in big biz and big govt, which means less, lousy, more
expensive and
slower medicine over time. Either A. the govt will change standards to lower
costs, or B. the
market will fail to reward innovation, leaving USA like the soviet union when it
comes to
medicine. (Comrade, when you are done with that needle, please hand it to
me...)
Or both.
John
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 10:25:23 -0500, "Randal Tietz"
:
>
> John,
>
> You are a very optimistic man. I just read the first post about medical
outsourcing and your
(wishful?) comment " Why, if something is not done about this trend, we might
see reform of
medicine in USA!." Then I saw this gem today from the AMA:
>
> >Millions of upper-income Americans refuse to buy health insurance because
they're
young and healthy and figure they don't need it.
> But now the American Medical Association wants to force them to buy coverage.
> At its annual meeting in Chicago on Tuesday, the nation's largest doctors'
group called for
mandatory health insurance for anyone who makes more than five times the poverty
level.
That works out to $49,000 for an individual and $100,000 for a family of four.
>
> No one would go to jail for refusing to buy coverage. The AMA instead
suggested using the
tax code to force compliance. There would be incentives such as tax credits for
people who
buy insurance and higher taxes for those who don't.
>
> Of the 46 million uninsured Americans, about 5 million, or 11 percent, make
more than
five times the poverty level. The AMA said these people burden the health care
system when
they incur catastrophic medical bills they can't afford to pay. The cost gets
passed on to
those who largely pay for the health care system: taxpayers, employers and the
insured.
>
> "Society should not be penalized by the potential costly medical treatments of
those
uninsured who can afford to purchase health insurance coverage," an AMA report
said. <
http://www.suntimes.com/output/health/cst-nws-ama14.html
>
> When it passes, and it will in some form pass, it can be titled the "American
Medical System
Full Employment Act" This is a variant of the Massachusetts law making it
mandatory for its
residents to purchase health insurance.
>
> Where are all the "get government off the back of the people" conservatives
now? The "free
market" advocates in Washington D.C. seem to be missing in action here. I wonder
why.
>
> R.L. Tietz
Prefabricated Housing from Toyota
Re: [spiers] Prefabricated Housing from Toyota
On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:31:27 -0000, "mgranich"
>
> You can throw up a Toyota house in just 6 hours! Amazing!
>
You mean we could have rebuilt New Orleans by now?!
John