Saturday, September 15, 2001

Forgiveness

Re: [spiers] Forgiveness

Another perspective from another discussion group...

Letter by Tamim Ansary, an Afghan-American woman
> Dear Friends,
>
> Yesterday I heard a lot of talk about "bombing
> Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO
> Talk Radio allowed that this would mean killing
> innocent people, people who had nothing to do with
> this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept
> collateral damage," and he asked, "What else can we
> do? What is your suggestion?" Minutes later I heard a
> TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do
> what must be done." And I thought about these issues
> especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and
> even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never
> lost track of what's been going on over there. So I
> want to share a few thoughts with anyone who will
> listen.
>
> I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin
> Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people
> were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I
> fervently wish to see those monsters punished. But the
> Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not
> even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a
> cult of ignorant psychotics who captured Afghanistan
> in 1997 and have been holding the country in bondage
> ever since. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a
> master plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When
> you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think
> "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the
> concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan
> people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were
> the first victims of the perpetrators. They would love
> for someone to eliminate the Taliban and clear out the
> rats nest of international thugs holed up in their
> country. I guarantee it. Some say, if that's the case,
> why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the
> Taliban themselves? The answer is, they're starved,
> exhausted, damaged, and incapacitated. A few years
> ago, the United Nations estimated that there are
> 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country
> with no economy, no food.
>
> Millions of Afghans are widows of the approximately
> two million men killed during the war with the
> Soviets. And the Taliban has been executing these
> women for being women and have buried some of their
> opponents alive in mass graves. The soil of
> Afghanistan is littered with land mines and almost all
> the farms have been destroyed. The Afghan people have
> tried to overthrow the Taliban. They haven't been able
> to.
>
> We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan
> back to the Stone Age. Trouble with that scheme is,
> it's already been done. The Soviets took care of it .
> Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering.
> Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into
> piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals?
> Done. Destroy their infrastructure? There is no
> infrastructure. Cut them off from medicine and health
> care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
>
> New bombs would only land in the rubble of earlier
> bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not
> likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat,
> only they have the means to move around. They'd slip
> away and hide. (They have already, I hear.) Maybe the
> bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they
> don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs.
> But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't
> really be a strike against the criminals who did this
> horrific thing. Actually it would be making common
> cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the
> people they've been raping all this time.
>
> So what else can be done, then? Let me now speak with
> true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden
> is to go in there with ground troops. I think that
> when people speak of "having the belly to do what
> needs to be done" many of them are thinking in terms
> of having the belly to kill as many as needed. They
> are thinking about overcoming moral qualms about
> killing innocent people. But it's the belly to die not
> kill that's actually on the table. Americans will die
> in a land war to get Bin Laden. And not just because
> some Americans would die fighting their way through
> Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger
> than that, folks. To get any troops to Afghanistan,
> we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us?
> Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be
> first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You
> see where I'm going. The invasion approach is a
> flirtation with global war between Islam and the West.
>
> And that is Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what
> he wants and why he did this thing. Read his speeches
> and statements. It's all right there. At the moment,
> of course, "Islam" as such does not exist. There are
> Muslims and there are Muslim countries, but no such
> political entity as Islam. Bin Laden believes that if
> he can get a war started, he can constitute this
> entity and he'd be running it. He really believes
> Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous,
> but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam
> and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West
> wreaks a holocaust in Muslim lands, that's a billion
> people with nothing left to lose, even better from Bin
> Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong about
> winning, in the end the west would probably
> overcome--whatever that would mean in such a war; but
> the war would last for years and millions would die,
> not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?
> Bin Laden yes, but anyone else?
>
> I don't have a solution. But I do believe that
> suffering and poverty are the soil in which terrorism
> grows. Bin Laden and his cohorts want to bait us into
> creating more such soil, so they and their kind can
> flourish. We can't let him do that. That's my humble
> opinion.
>
> Tamim Ansary


Friday, September 14, 2001

Article

Hello guys
it is terrible and sad to see what happen in nyc and who ever responsible should
be brought to justice and pay for his horrible actions.
i would like you all to read this article so we might have more understanding so
no one else will get hurt just becouse they are muslim or form THAT part of the
world or culture.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism.htm


Wednesday, September 12, 2001

Forgiveness

RE: [spiers] Forgiveness



John --
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I would like to add
mine.
I opposed the war in Vietnam. I opposed the conflict in Grenada.
I opposed the Gulf War. I opposed our involvement in all the U.N. missions,
including Bosnia and Kosovo. Had I been old enough to understand it, I would
have opposed the Korean War as well. I would have opposed them all because, like
Thomas Jefferson and George Washington I believe we should not be involved in
foreign alliances and entanglements, and should only be willing to go to war and
sacrifice human lives when absolutely necessary to respond to an attack on our
own country.
For that reason I would have been all FOR the efforts in World
War II.
For the same reason I think our country is ready to
respond now, to this latest attack, in a way far more viscious, barbaric, and
devastating than the way my parent's generation responded to Pearl Harbor. At
least with Pearl Harbor, the Japanese had the courtesy to attack a military
base. An unprecendented attack on American civilians on American soil I think
will require (politically speaking) an unprecedented response. I do not believe
there will be any opposition to the war that is surely coming. I do not even
think that most of us will be interested in the surrender when it is offered or
begged for. It feels like the American public (myself included) is ready to wage
a war of total annihilation until there is nothing left to kill.
There are only four things bothering me:
1. This wouldn't have happened if our alleged "leaders" had
honored the clear and numerous written warnings of our founding fathers to stay
out of foreign alliances. What were we thinking when getting involved in the
middle east? Were lower gas prices worth all this? Were they worth all the death
and suffering and horror and poverty that is on its way? Why was meddling in
other people's conflicts so important to our pitiful "leaders"? Will any of them
ever have the guts to answer the orphans that were created yesterday, and the
orphans-to-be? Will most American citizens ever have enough courage to even ask
these questions? Or will they continue to insist that Americans have no
responsibility, no matter how many foreign conflicts (against countries that did
NOT attack us) they let their leaders drag them into? Will they continue to
cling to that tired old cliche, "My country, right or wrong"? I guess it's
easier than challenging authority...
2. Even after waging a war of annihilation against (Libya,
Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan... pick one or more), we will
almost certainly be no safer than we are today. Religious fanatics who believe
they ensure their position in heaven by dying in Jihad will not stop or slow
down, even when a few countries do go up in nuclear smoke. I guess all we can do
is make sure there are far fewer of them. But it only took 3 "men" with razor
blades, an ability to communicate, and some flying knowledge to slaughter 10,000
or so Americans. Can we kill the last 3 religious fanatics on the planet? Are we
going to demand laws requiring background checks and 3-day waiting periods
before allowing people to purchase box cutters?
3. If we lose the freedom to travel or need passports like in
the old Soviet Union to get from city to city, have they already won? If we are
getting ready to slaughter Arabic civilians, haven't we become just like them?
Have they already won?
4. Were Buddha, Krishna, and Jesus all wrong? Is forgiveness
impossible? I am deeply ashamed and disappointed in myself, because I do not
even want to forgive.
May God have mercy on all our souls. Allah akbar.
Love,
Rod


Forgiveness

Re: [spiers] Forgiveness


In a message dated 9/12/01 5:41:03 PM, Parrish3@aol.com writes:

<< John & company,


Forgiveness isn't the issue here. A strong, decisive, devastating, and

overwhelming response is what is needed. You and others are viewing the Arab

terrorists from our culture's perspective. These people aren't civilized.

They have a tribe mentality and to them, you are either part of their tribe,

or you aren't. If you aren't then you have no value, and are expendable,

without any sliver of conscience. Dealing with terrorists will have to be

different from people from a civilized country. In conclusion, if they and

their culture are exterminated, then obviously, we won't have a terrorist

threat. Last, yes, we do have a weapon in our arsenal, and it was born in

Los Alamos.


Steve >>

Now Steve... there is more to the Arab world than is dreamt of in these
words. But you are not alone, and that is one of my points, there are plenty
of people with your view in power on our side. The problem is not so much
the view, but the power we have behind it. We can do better.

john Spiers
javascript:void(0)


Forgiveness

Re: [spiers] Forgiveness


In a message dated 9/12/01 3:50:26 PM, lpointe@mcn.org writes:

<< Forgiveness has nothing to do with being a fool. They must not be allowed
to do
this again, and, it is impossible to control and reason with fanatics. This is
not just men dealing with men, but, mass destruction of many innocent persons.
They all must be found and destroyed. Let's not do this thing of spending 5
years in international courts while the victims are long since dead. Swift
justice is required here, and, everyone feels better when it is quick and
final. I can forgive them, but I cannot live with them. Desiree >>

Ah there is the rub... they did do it again... they missed the world trade
center a few years ago, and got it this time. Such a stunning act
demonstrates what everyone already knows (they can get to us) and that these
fanatics have vast resources. All you hope they will get from us, they
will...that is a done deal. My point is they have dedication and resources
because they see us just as you describe them. Madeleine Albright is on
record, and stands by her statement that the half million deaths of elders,
women and children In Iraq due to our embargoes is an acceptable price. We
bombed an aspirin factory in the Sudan (oops..); we bombed the Chinese
embassy in Yugoslavia...(oops...) we have US military in 100 countries
influencing events. This leaves a lot of people with a lot of anger towards
us. Presidents Washington and Eisenhower both warned us against bad elements
in USA getting USA into unworthy adventures overseas.

These people would have as happily killed me and my family as well as any
other, but if we did not give so many common people reason to despise us,
these thugs would be loan sharking or some other petty crime in their home
countries instead of heros. And recall, that every known enemy named so far
as a suspect was once trained and armed by the USA, long ago, to destabilize
some disfavored regime.

I agree about avoiding international tribunals, the crime is against
Americans in America... and an act of war it is. Our machine will respond
accordingly, and to your hearts content. I am thinking a few steps ahead, so
we dont end up with soldiers in 110 countries... We need to work our way back
where I can trade in Baghdad and Havana. A simple declaration that we are
committed to true free trade, a flat 3% duty on all imports, continue with no
taxes on exports, no subsidies or protections for USA businesses and you'll
see a world change so fast the Osama bin Ladens of the world would be parking
cars for a living. Naturally, our soldiers would as rare overseas as a Swiss
soldier, but then, that was the plan.

John Spiers


Forgiveness

Re: [spiers] Forgiveness

John & company,

Forgiveness isn't the issue here. A strong, decisive, devastating, and
overwhelming response is what is needed. You and others are viewing the Arab
terrorists from our culture's perspective. These people aren't civilized.
They have a tribe mentality and to them, you are either part of their tribe,
or you aren't. If you aren't then you have no value, and are expendable,
without any sliver of conscience. Dealing with terrorists will have to be
different from people from a civilized country. In conclusion, if they and
their culture are exterminated, then obviously, we won't have a terrorist
threat. Last, yes, we do have a weapon in our arsenal, and it was born in
Los Alamos.

Steve

Folks,

I had the pleasure of beginning my career just after the last series of
heinous terrorist acts in the early '70's, and was fortunate to travel widely
in mid-to-late 70's as a buyer. More specifically, I was able to travel to
"Red China" twice a year and circumstances were such that I was rubbing
shoulders with "enemies of the USA" in the course of my work.

Now there is no doubt some very evil people did this work today, and equally
no doubt that the USA will respond in a way that certainly settles matters
for a while. There is much speculation as to who did this (and keep in mind
we had 2 whole days of "arab terrorist" alarms before Timothy McVeigh was
arrested for the OKC blast), and we'll certainly find out. Of course no
government will ever be behind such an attack, so it is likely a
non-governmental group. Bottom line is we'll find out, and we will retaliate
effectively.

What no one above grade schoolers seems to be asking is "why?" Why would so
many people conspire to do so much damage? It seems a given that this is
what Arab terrorists do... bomb Americans.

I got an answer in the late '70's from the kinds of people you saw dancing in
jubilation over our disaster. Their explanations were rational and
understandable, although I never agreed. And fortunately, the vast majority
of those Arabs I met were genuinely distressed at what havoc the terrorists
cause the Arab world as well as our world.

We are the most powerful country in the world and will remain so this century
no matter how many attacks we suffer. But there are many people within our
power structures who are unworthy of our country, just as these terrorists
are unworthy of Arab culture. The worst elements in Araby give power to the
worst voices in our culture, and they feed on each other.

We have in our arsenal, within our culture, a weapon that is irresistible.
That weapon is forgiveness. Yes some of Araby rejoices at our wound, but
most of cultured Araby is disgusted. We are the superior power, and as such
we can forgive, and then listen to the answer to the question why. There is
no shame in that.

We voters may not be pleased with what we hear, and we may have to take carehttp://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=878781244953948813#
to pick more worthy representatives. We are overwhelmingly powerful, and it
is up to us what happens next. Inshallah, the violence will stop.

John Spiers


Forgiveness

RE: [spiers] Forgiveness

I think there is some misunderstanding of what forgiveness is and what it is
not.

Forgiveness is not a display of weakness, but of strength.
Forgiveness is not condoning another's action.
Forgiveness is not forgetting another's action, either.

Forgiveness is releasing another to their higher good. It is to act out of
love rather than fear. Action at cause, rather than reaction.

Action taken out of love from a place of forgiveness is much greater, much
stronger than that taken out of fear or thoughts of retribution. You need
only look at history for examples of that.

I share the information below with those of you who may find it of help.

Join Neale Donald Walsch, Marianne Williamson, James Twyman, James
> Redfield and Doreen Virtue in this prayerful response to the recent
> terrorist attacks on the US. We join with all the millions around the
> world praying for peace, and for those who have been injured or killed.
> Please send this out to as many people as you can so we can keep our
> minds focused on peace.
>
> Seven Days of Prayer
> It took seven to create the world,
> we now ask you to join us in spending
> the next seven days recreating it.
>
> Wherever you are, join us for the next seven days "FEELING" this new
> world and praying it into existence. At 9pm EST, 6pm west coast time,
> from September 11 to 18, simply feel the presence of millions around the
> world who are praying for all violence to cease. Spend ten minutes in
> silence each night knowing that we are creating a new world based upon
> the laws of compassion and peace. Once again, please pass this on to
> everyone you know.
>
> A Letter from Neale, Marianne, James, James and Doreen:
>
> Dear friends around the world=85
>
> The events of this day cause every thinking person to stop their daily
> lives, whatever is going on in them, and to ponder deeply the larger
> questions of life. We search again for not only the meaning of life, but
> the purpose of our individual and collective experience as we have
> created it-and we look earnestly for ways in which we might recreate
> ourselves anew as a human species, so that we will never treat each
> other this way again.
>
> The hour has come for us to demonstrate at the highest level our most
> extraordinary thought about Who We Really Are.
>
> There are two possible responses to what has occurred today. The first
> comes from love, the second from fear.
>
> If we come from fear we may panic and do things-as individuals and as
> nations-that could only cause further damage. If we come from love we
> will find refuge and strength, even as we provide it to others.
>
> This is the moment of your ministry. This is the time of teaching. What
> you teach at this time, through your every word and action right now,
> will remain as indelible lessons in the hearts and minds of those whose
> lives you touch, both now, and for years to come.
>
> We will set the course for tomorrow, today. At this hour. In this
> moment.=20
>
> Let us seek not to pinpoint blame, but to pinpoint cause.
>
> Unless we take this time to look at the cause of our experience, we will
> never remove ourselves from the experiences it creates. Instead, we will
> forever live in fear of retribution from those within the human family
> who feel aggrieved, and, likewise, seek retribution from them.
>
> To us the reasons are clear. We have not learned the most basic human
> lessons. We have not remembered the most basic human truths. We have
> not understood the most basic spiritual wisdom. In short, we have not
> been listening to God, and because we have not, we watch ourselves do
> ungodly things.=20
>
> The message we hear from all sources of truth is clear: We are all one.
> That is a message the human race has largely ignored. Forgetting this
> truth is the only cause of hatred and war, and the way to remember is
> simple: Love, this and every moment.
>
> If we could love even those who have attacked us, and seek to understand
> why they have done so, what then would be our response? Yet if we meet
> negativity with negativity, rage with rage, attack with attack, what
> then will be the outcome?
>
> These are the questions that are placed before the human race today.
> They are questions that we have failed to answer for thousands of years.
> Failure to answer them now could eliminate the need to answer them at
> all.=20
>
> If we want the beauty of the world that we have co-created to be
> experienced by our children and our children's children, we will have to
> become spiritual activists right here, right now, and cause that to
> happen. We must choose to be at cause in the matter.
>
> So, talk with God today. Ask God for help, for counsel and advice, for
> insight and for strength and for inner peace and for deep wisdom. Ask
> God on this day to show us how to show up in the world in a way that
> will cause the world itself to change. And join all those people around
> the world who are praying right now, adding your Light to the Light that
> dispells all fear.
>
> That is the challenge that is placed before every thinking person today.
> Today the human soul asks the question: What can I do to preserve the
> beauty and the wonder of our world and to eliminate the anger and
> hatred-and the disparity that inevitably causes it - in that part of the
> world which I touch?
>
> Please seek to answer that question today, with all the magnificence
> that is You.
>
> What can you do TODAY...this very moment?
>
> A central teaching in most spiritual traditions is: What you wish to
> experience, provide for another.
>
> Look to see, now, what it is you wish to experience-in your own life,
> and in the world. Then see if there is another for whom you may be the
> source of that.=20
>
> If you wish to experience peace, provide peace for another.
>
> If you wish to know that you are safe, cause another to know that they
> are safe.=20
>
> If you wish to better understand seemingly incomprehensible things, help
> another to better understand.
>
> If you wish to heal your own sadness or anger, seek to heal the sadness
> or anger of another.
>
> Those others are waiting for you now. They are looking to you for
> guidance, for help, for courage, for strength, for understanding, and
> for assurance at this hour. Most of all, they are looking to you for
> love.
>
> We love you, and we send you our deepest thoughts of peace.
>
> Neale, Marianne, James, James and Doreen


Forgiveness

Re: [spiers] Forgiveness

To Della Allen in particular: These people know no language except the language
of force. If they were capable of negotiating we wouldn't have a crisis in the
Middle East and the Palestanians would have their homeland. All over the world
they are causing trouble. You are living in Oz. Who said anything about
retaliating against unknowns. Nobody wants to hurt innocent people. They
really don't care when they plan to attack when most people are at work or
families are eating in a restaurant. If you deplore something you don't live
with it. The good people in Germany didn't do anything about it. Look what
happened. Where is your mind?


Food For Thought

I think with any right-wing extremist (White Supremicists, Taliban,
Religious right,Asian traditionalists, etc.) group they can easily
target the USA for it's "gluttonous consumption" and glitzy free-form
excesses...(some of these to a foreigner might be offensive)...but
good in the name of advertising,humor and attention-getting.

In the name of freedom, some thought has to be given to introspection
and to what extend do we shove this "psychographic" thing down
people's throats. Who knows who is watching the "western-thought
directed", commercials on the satellite dish in the desert somewhere
and how much of this "imagery" is reality--media is it really true or
believable to the untrained eye.. sometimes yes...Psychographics=the
dream of ownership,fantasy that fuels the advertising world... How
far do you go to sell product?

This is how a strange form of ignorance is manifest.

Some thoughts, not on forgiveness, but introspection about freedoms
and those who dictate it.


Forgiveness

Re: [spiers] Forgiveness

Forgiveness has nothing to do with being a fool. They must not be allowed to do
this again, and, it is impossible to control and reason with fanatics. This is
not just men dealing with men, but, mass destruction of many innocent persons.
They all must be found and destroyed. Let's not do this thing of spending 5
years in international courts while the victims are long since dead. Swift
justice is required here, and, everyone feels better when it is quick and
final. I can forgive them, but I cannot live with them. Desiree

Alex Briones wrote:

> John,
>
> I appreciate your words, but right now it's too early
> to forgive. There will be a day when we can forgive,
> perhaps after we get justice, but we will never
> forget.
>
> I believe that with these monstrous destruction, each
> one of us - not the United States government machinery
> - each one of us is a soldier against terrorism and we
> are at war.
>
> Remember folks, these were all innocent people who
> died. They were not soldiers or government officials.
> They were all good and descent Americans.
>
> Thanks
> Alex
>
> --- Lucinda O'Melia wrote:
> > Thanks
> > John T. O'Melia, PE
> > Vice President
> > Becker and O'Melia, LLC
> > 493 Bottesford Ct.
> > Severna Park, MD 21146
> > 410-421-5276
> > 410-421-5476 (FAX)
> > jomelia@beckerandomelia.com
> > www.beckerandomelia.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:57 PM
> > Subject: [spiers] Forgiveness
> >
> >
> > > Folks,
> > >
> > > I had the pleasure of beginning my career just
> > after the last series of
> > > heinous terrorist acts in the early '70's, and was
> > fortunate to travel
> > widely
> > > in mid-to-late 70's as a buyer. More
> > specifically, I was able to travel
> > to
> > > "Red China" twice a year and circumstances were
> > such that I was rubbing
> > > shoulders with "enemies of the USA" in the course
> > of my work.
> > >
> > > Now there is no doubt some very evil people did
> > this work today, and
> > equally
> > > no doubt that the USA will respond in a way that
> > certainly settles matters
> > > for a while. There is much speculation as to who
> > did this (and keep in
> > mind
> > > we had 2 whole days of "arab terrorist" alarms
> > before Timothy McVeigh was
> > > arrested for the OKC blast), and we'll certainly
> > find out. Of course no
> > > government will ever be behind such an attack, so
> > it is likely a
> > > non-governmental group. Bottom line is we'll find
> > out, and we will
> > retaliate
> > > effectively.
> > >
> > > What no one above grade schoolers seems to be
> > asking is "why?" Why would
> > so
> > > many people conspire to do so much damage? It
> > seems a given that this is
> > > what Arab terrorists do... bomb Americans.
> > >
> > > I got an answer in the late '70's from the kinds
> > of people you saw dancing
> > in
> > > jubilation over our disaster. Their explanations
> > were rational and
> > > understandable, although I never agreed. And
> > fortunately, the vast
> > majority
> > > of those Arabs I met were genuinely distressed at
> > what havoc the
> > terrorists
> > > cause the Arab world as well as our world.
> > >
> > > We are the most powerful country in the world and
> > will remain so this
> > century
> > > no matter how many attacks we suffer. But there
> > are many people within
> > our
> > > power structures who are unworthy of our country,
> > just as these terrorists
> > > are unworthy of Arab culture. The worst elements
> > in Araby give power to
> > the
> > > worst voices in our culture, and they feed on each
> > other.
> > >
> > > We have in our arsenal, within our culture, a
> > weapon that is irresistible.
> > > That weapon is forgiveness. Yes some of Araby
> > rejoices at our wound, but
> > > most of cultured Araby is disgusted. We are the
> > superior power, and as
> > such
> > > we can forgive, and then listen to the answer to
> > the question why. There
> > is
> > > no shame in that.
> > >
> > > We voters may not be pleased with what we hear,
> > and we may have to take
> > care
> > > to pick more worthy representatives. We are
> > overwhelmingly powerful, and
> > it
> > > is up to us what happens next. Inshallah, the
> > violence will stop.
> > >
> > > John Spiers


Forgiveness

Re: [spiers] Forgiveness

John,

I appreciate your words, but right now it's too early
to forgive. There will be a day when we can forgive,
perhaps after we get justice, but we will never
forget.

I believe that with these monstrous destruction, each
one of us - not the United States government machinery
- each one of us is a soldier against terrorism and we
are at war.

Remember folks, these were all innocent people who
died. They were not soldiers or government officials.
They were all good and descent Americans.

Thanks
Alex


Forgiveness

Re: [spiers] Forgiveness


Absolutely!

As the Bible says, God will spare the city if
there is at least one righteous man.
Aren't you fanny, John?

If there is 90% of population set up to kill those
infidels, Americans, would you spare the city?
What about 50% of martirs/murderers in-training?
What about 10%?

At what %% would you stop forgiving?
If your child is killed, you will still forgive?
If your own throat is slit, will you keep forgiving?

There is no culture, which preaches mass murder,
except minorities.
Nazis were minority in Germany, until they took the
power, then they educated population into NATION of
murderers, thanks to FORGIVENESS of the "civilized"
democracies.

You remind me the famous Lenin's remarks about
Capitalists who would sell to him a rope on which
proletariat will hang them.
There are other things in life but greenbacks, John.
You are an easy target for foregn agents to manipulate
your ideology to help them in the next act.
Remember "Good Morning, Vietnam" scene in restorant?

Who do you want to forgive?
Those who are in preparing the next blow?
Those who declare Jews and Americans legitimate target
all over the world?
Those who declare their goal the "Final Solution" of
Hitler?

Poor, poor John, you will be their first victim, and
still you savour this sweet dream of universal peace.

Sorry, John, but as the saying goes:
"Those who don't learn from history are dumed to
repeat it."

My heart akes for America, for you and for all of us,
stupid people.

Arkadyl.


--- wileyccc@aol.com wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I had the pleasure of beginning my career just after
the last series of heinous terrorist acts in the early
'70's, and was fortunate to travel widely in
mid-to-late 70's as a buyer. More specifically, I was
able to travel to "Red China" twice a year and
circumstances were such that I was rubbing shoulders
with "enemies of the USA" in the course of my work.
>
> Now there is no doubt some very evil people did this
work today, and equally no doubt that the USA will
respond in a way that certainly settles matters for a
while.

There is much speculation as to who did this (and keep
in mind we had 2 whole days of "arab terrorist" alarms
before Timothy McVeigh was arrested for the OKC
blast), and we'll certainly find out.

Of course no (WHERE DID YOU GET THIS "OF
COURSE"?)government will ever be behind such an
attack, so it is likely a non-governmental group.
Bottom line is we'll find out, and we will retaliate
effectively (AS USUAL, HA-HA).
>
> What no one above grade schoolers seems to be asking
> is "why?" Why would so many people conspire to do
so much damage? It seems a given that this is what
Arab terrorists do... bomb Americans.
>
I got an answer in the late '70's from the kinds of
people you saw dancing in jubilation over our
disaster. Their explanations were rational
(I NEVER MET A PERSON IN MY LIFE WHO"S EXPLANATIONS
WERE NOT "RATIONAL")and understandable, although I
never agreed (THANK YOU).

And fortunately, the vast majority of those Arabs I
met were genuinely distressed at what havoc the
terrorists cause the Arab world as well as our world
(THEY STILL PROTECT "MINORITY" THAT DOES IT).
>
> We are the most powerful country in the world and
will remain so this century no matter how many attacks
we suffer. (WHY DO YOU THINK SO? WISHFUL THINKING?)
But there are many people within our power structures
who are unworthy of our country, just as these
terrorists are unworthy of Arab culture (TOO BROAD
GENERALIZATION).
The worst elements in Araby give power to the worst
voices in our culture, and they feed on each other
(TRUE).
>
We have in our arsenal, within our culture, a weapon
that is irresistible (LIKE CHEMBERLEN IN 1939).
That weapon is forgiveness(MISTAKE). Yes some of
Araby rejoices at our wound, but most of cultured
Araby is disgusted. We are the superior power, and as
such we can forgive, and then listen to the answer to
the question why. There is no shame in that.
>
We voters may not be pleased with what we hear, and we
may have to take care to pick more worthy
representatives (WHERE WILL YOU FIND THEM?).
We are overwhelmingly powerful, (MISTAKE)and it is up
to us what happens next. Inshallah, the violence will
stop(DO'NT HOLD YOUR BREATH).
>
> John Spiers


Tuesday, September 11, 2001

Forgiveness

Re: [spiers] Forgiveness

Dear John & all: Thank you for having the courage to voice a perhaps "not
popular" opinion. I agree that Forgiveness has to be the answer, it is the
only practical long term solution and what is best to heal our troubled
World. I have believed for a very long time that we citizens of the United
States only get a small part of the truth, the part that some very powerful
interests in this country and other countries want us to get. Retaliating
on the basis of unknowns makes no sense and is certainly counter-productive
and only begets more violence and suffering of the innocent. If for no
other reason than " do what works" I hope and pray we act like a mature
sensible adult country and don't make a bad situation worse by joining in
terrorist insanity and becoming exactly what we deplore! God Bless
America - Della Allen
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:57 PM
Subject: [spiers] Forgiveness


> Folks,
>
> I had the pleasure of beginning my career just after the last series of
> heinous terrorist acts in the early '70's, and was fortunate to travel
widely
> in mid-to-late 70's as a buyer. More specifically, I was able to travel
to
> "Red China" twice a year and circumstances were such that I was rubbing
> shoulders with "enemies of the USA" in the course of my work.
>
> Now there is no doubt some very evil people did this work today, and
equally
> no doubt that the USA will respond in a way that certainly settles matters
> for a while. There is much speculation as to who did this (and keep in
mind
> we had 2 whole days of "arab terrorist" alarms before Timothy McVeigh was
> arrested for the OKC blast), and we'll certainly find out. Of course no
> government will ever be behind such an attack, so it is likely a
> non-governmental group. Bottom line is we'll find out, and we will
retaliate
> effectively.
>
> What no one above grade schoolers seems to be asking is "why?" Why would
so
> many people conspire to do so much damage? It seems a given that this is
> what Arab terrorists do... bomb Americans.
>
> I got an answer in the late '70's from the kinds of people you saw dancing
in
> jubilation over our disaster. Their explanations were rational and
> understandable, although I never agreed. And fortunately, the vast
majority
> of those Arabs I met were genuinely distressed at what havoc the
terrorists
> cause the Arab world as well as our world.
>
> We are the most powerful country in the world and will remain so this
century
> no matter how many attacks we suffer. But there are many people within
our
> power structures who are unworthy of our country, just as these terrorists
> are unworthy of Arab culture. The worst elements in Araby give power to
the
> worst voices in our culture, and they feed on each other.
>
> We have in our arsenal, within our culture, a weapon that is irresistible.
> That weapon is forgiveness. Yes some of Araby rejoices at our wound, but
> most of cultured Araby is disgusted. We are the superior power, and as
such
> we can forgive, and then listen to the answer to the question why. There
is
> no shame in that.
>
> We voters may not be pleased with what we hear, and we may have to take
care
> to pick more worthy representatives. We are overwhelmingly powerful, and
it
> is up to us what happens next. Inshallah, the violence will stop.
>
> John Spiers


Forgiveness

Folks,

I had the pleasure of beginning my career just after the last series of
heinous terrorist acts in the early '70's, and was fortunate to travel widely
in mid-to-late 70's as a buyer. More specifically, I was able to travel to
"Red China" twice a year and circumstances were such that I was rubbing
shoulders with "enemies of the USA" in the course of my work.

Now there is no doubt some very evil people did this work today, and equally
no doubt that the USA will respond in a way that certainly settles matters
for a while. There is much speculation as to who did this (and keep in mind
we had 2 whole days of "arab terrorist" alarms before Timothy McVeigh was
arrested for the OKC blast), and we'll certainly find out. Of course no
government will ever be behind such an attack, so it is likely a
non-governmental group. Bottom line is we'll find out, and we will retaliate
effectively.

What no one above grade schoolers seems to be asking is "why?" Why would so
many people conspire to do so much damage? It seems a given that this is
what Arab terrorists do... bomb Americans.

I got an answer in the late '70's from the kinds of people you saw dancing in
jubilation over our disaster. Their explanations were rational and
understandable, although I never agreed. And fortunately, the vast majority
of those Arabs I met were genuinely distressed at what havoc the terrorists
cause the Arab world as well as our world.

We are the most powerful country in the world and will remain so this century
no matter how many attacks we suffer. But there are many people within our
power structures who are unworthy of our country, just as these terrorists
are unworthy of Arab culture. The worst elements in Araby give power to the
worst voices in our culture, and they feed on each other.

We have in our arsenal, within our culture, a weapon that is irresistible.
That weapon is forgiveness. Yes some of Araby rejoices at our wound, but
most of cultured Araby is disgusted. We are the superior power, and as such
we can forgive, and then listen to the answer to the question why. There is
no shame in that.

We voters may not be pleased with what we hear, and we may have to take care
to pick more worthy representatives. We are overwhelmingly powerful, and it
is up to us what happens next. Inshallah, the violence will stop.

John Spiers


Monday, September 10, 2001

NYTimes.com Article: Sometimes the Economy Needs a Setback

This article from NYTimes.com
has been sent to you by wileyccc@aol.com.

Folks,

I have not even finished this article and I think y'all should read it... USA
is #1 world trader, and knowing what's happening here helps ...

John

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Sometimes the Economy Needs a Setback

By JAMES GRANT



The weak economy and the multi-trillion-dollar drop in the value of
stocks have raised a rash of recrimination. Never a people to
suffer the loss of money in silence, Americans are demanding to
know what happened to them. The truth is simple: There was a boom.

A boom is a phase of accelerated prosperity. For ignition, it
requires easy money. For inspiration, it draws on new technology. A
decade ago, farsighted investors saw a glorious future for the
personal computer in the context of the more peaceful world after
the cold war. Stock prices began to rise — and rose and rose. The
cost of financing new investment fell correspondingly, until by
about the middle of the decade the money became too cheap to pass
up. Business investment soared, employment rose, reported profits
climbed.

Booms begin in reality and rise to fantasy. Stock investors seemed
to forget that more capital spending means more competition, not
less; that more competition implies lower profit margins, not
higher ones; and that lower profit margins do not point to rising
stock prices. It seemed to slip their minds that high- technology
companies work ceaselessly to make their own products obsolete, not
just those of their competitors — that they are inherently
self-destructive.

At the 2000 peak of the titanic bull market, as shares in
companies with no visible means of support commanded high prices,
the value of all stocks as a percentage of the American gross
domestic product reached 183 percent, more than twice the level
before the crash in 1929. Were investors out of their minds? Wall
Street analysts were happy to reassure them on this point: No, they
were the privileged financiers of the new economy. Digital
communications were like the wheel or gunpowder or the internal
combustion engine, only better. The Internet would revolutionize
the conveyance of human thought. To quibble about the valuation of
companies as potentially transforming as any listed on the Nasdaq
stock market was seen almost as an act of ingratitude. The same
went for questioning the integrity of the companies' reports of
lush profits.

In markets all things are cyclical, even the idea that markets are
not cyclical. The notion that the millennial economy was in some
way "new" was an early portent of confusion. Since the dawn of the
industrial age, technology has been lightening the burden of work
and driving the pace of economic change. In 1850, as the telegraph
was beginning to anticipate the Internet, about 65 percent of the
American labor force worked on farms. In 2000, only 2.4 percent
did. The prolonged migration of hands and minds from the field to
the factory, office and classroom is all productivity growth — the
same phenomenon the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board
rhapsodizes over. It's true, just as Alan Greenspan says, that
technological progress is the bulwark of the modern economy. Then
again, it has been true for most of the past 200 years.

In 1932 an eminent German analyst of business cycles, Wilhelm
Röpke, looked back from amid the debris of the Depression. Citing a
series of inventions and innovations — railroads, steelmaking,
electricity, chemical production, the automobile — he wrote: "The
jumpy increases in investment characterizing every boom are usually
connected with some technological advance. . . . Our economic
system reacts to the stimulus . . . with the prompt and complete
mobilization of all its inner forces in order to carry it out
everywhere in the shortest possible time. But this acceleration and
concentration has evidently to be bought at the expense of a
disturbance of equilibrium which is slowly overcome in time of
depression."

Röpke wrote before the 1946 Employment Act, which directed the
United States government to cut recessions short — using tax
breaks, for example, or cuts in interest rates — even if these
actions stymie a salutary process of economic adjustment. No one
doubts the humanity of this law. Yet equally, no one can doubt the
inhumanity of a decade- long string of palliatives in Japan,
intended to insulate the Japanese people from the consequences of
their bubble economy of the 1980's. Rather than suppressing the
bust, the government has only managed to prolong it, for a decade
and counting.

Booms not only precede busts; they also cause them. When capital
is so cheap that it might as well be free, entrepreneurs make
marginal investments. They build and hire expecting the good times
to continue to roll. Optimistic bankers and steadily rising stock
prices shield new businesses from having to show profits any sooner
than "eventually." Then, when the stars change alignment and
investors decide to withhold new financing, many companies are
cash-poor and must retrench or shut down. It is the work of a bear
market to reduce the prices of the white elephants until they are
cheap enough to interest a new class of buyers.

The boom-and-bust pattern has characterized the United States
economy since before the railroads. Growth has been two steps
forward and one step back, cycle by cycle. Headlong building has
been followed by necessary tearing down, which has been followed by
another lusty round of building. Observing this sequence from
across the seas, foreigners just shake their heads.

Less and less, however, are we bold and irrepressible Americans
willing to suffer the tearing-down phase of the cycle. After all,
it has seemed increasingly unnecessary. With a rising incidence of
federal intervention in financial markets, expansions have become
longer and contractions shorter. And year in and year out, the
United States is allowed to consume more of the world's goods than
it produces (the difference being approximately defined as the
trade deficit, running in excess of $400 billion a year).

We have listened respectfully as our financial elder statesmen
have speculated on the likelihood that digital technology has
permanently reduced the level of uncertainty in our commercial life
— never mind that last year the information technology industries
had no inkling that the demand for their products was beginning to
undergo a very old-fashioned collapse.


Even moderate expansions produce their share of misconceived
investments, and the 90's boom, the gaudiest on record, was no
exception. In the upswing, faith in the American financial leaders
bordered on idolatry. Now there is disillusionment. Investors are
right to resent Wall Street for its conflicts of interest and to
upbraid Alan Greenspan for his wide-eyed embrace of the so- called
productivity miracle. But the underlying source of recurring cycles
in any economy is the average human being.

The financial historian Max Winkler concluded his tale of the
fantastic career of the swindler-financier Ivar Kreuger, the
"Swedish match king," with the ancient epigram "Mundus vult decipi;
ergo decipiatur": The world wants to be deceived; let it therefore
be deceived. The Romans might have added, for financial context,
that the world is most credulous during bull markets. Prosperity
makes it gullible.
James Grant is the editor of Grant's Interest Rate
Observer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/09/opinion/09GRAN.html?ex=1001147153&ei=1&en=898b\
8611aaca6946

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most authoritative news coverage on the Web,
updated throughout the day.

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Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company


Sunday, September 9, 2001

Pakistani Clothes

In a message dated 9/9/01 5:21:44 PM, AZONEii@mail.com writes:

<< Hello
I took your cource even i missed few sessions but after reading all of your e
mails i really appereciate your information.
I am interested importing 100% cotton undergarments ( underwear and under
shirts for men) from pakistan,

***Why do you want to import these?***

as per my information goes i think there is Qouta requirment on pakistani
cotton, My Q do i have to get this Quota from US or the Exporter.

***US Dictates quota levels, pakistani govt issues quota to Pakistani
exporters.***

And 2nd Q is , would you advice me to participate in local Trade show with my
samples?
Thank you much
M. Haroon >>

***Once you have customersd who say your idea is a good idea and does not
exist yet, then you come back with your samples to those buyers...when they
affirm the samples are right, ask them who the best reps are for such
items...those reps will be in the best shows possible..therefore, an importer
should NEVER have his own booth at trade shows.***

john


Guerilla Marketing More...

Re: [spiers] Guerrilla marketing more...

Hello
I took your cource even i missed few sessions but after reading all of your e
mails i really appereciate your information.
I am interested importing 100% cotton undergarments ( underwear and under shirts
for men) from pakistan, as per my information goes i think there is Qouta
requirment on pakistani cotton, My Q do i have to get this Quota from US or the
Exporter.
And 2nd Q is , would you advice me to participate in local Trade show with my
samples?
Thank you much
M. Haroon
-----Original Message-----
From: wileyccc@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:00:00 EDT
To: spiers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [spiers] Guerrilla marketing more...


>
>
> << Dear John,
>
>
> Thanks for the speedy reply. Here are the answers, in order:
>
>
> The hats are made in China, and I import them FOB Hong Kong. I ship the
>
> fabric to my agent in Hong Kong.
>
> ***Has your supplier ever suggested he might get it the fabric cheaper/better
> than you can?***
>
> Re discounts: I don't have to pay shipping
>
> from HK to the US, as I normally do for my domestic sales.
>
> ***Do you mean in the instance of these foreign orders, or do you mean ever?
> To my mind one always pays for shipping from HK to US (importers always pay
> inbound freight) and NEVER pay domestic delivery to customers...they pay. So
> this sounds exactly backwards, depending on what you are saying.***
>
> Also, my supplier
>
> gives me a discount because they don't have to buy quota for shipping to the
>
> US.
>
> ***Because it is usa-made fabric?***
>
> The sale would be FOB Hong Kong to France or Germany, and the buyer
>
> would be responsible for paying for shipping from HK to Europe.
>
> ***This you did not mention in your original email, and it is the simple
> solution.***
>
> Also, the
>
> buyer asked for a discount, and I normally give a discount to anyone who
>
> orders a large quantity. My definition of a large quantity is 500 pieces and
>
> up. I do that because it is more efficient to ship a lot to one place than
>
> to ship several small quantities to several different places. Plus my
>
> production is cheaper if I order larger quantites.
>
> ***OK, sounds right, if true.***
>
>
> "Importers Prepay" This is great news. So these guys will expect to prepay?
>
> How soon before shipment?
>
> ***With an LC, as they receive the goods. Any other method, it depends. See
> below...***
>
>
> The rough dollar amount is $25,000 for the French, $12,500 for the German.
>
>
> ***sounds too high for Visa/mc...sounds like LC.***
>
>
> What IS the "simple profitable solution?"
>
> ***Part A, you figured out. Ship directly from the supplier to the european
> customer. Very good. Part B is to simply have the supplier bill the
> european customer directly, not you. Then you completely avoid any problems
> with payments, etc, and make money while you sleep. The price you charge the
> europeans is the cost of goods (what you pay the supplier) plus your NET
> profit.
>
> Say you buy these hats first cost at $8 each, add $2 cost for importation,
> and then wholesale in usa at $20 each. Your gross profit is $10, cost of
> goods is $10. Then you take out all of your expenses, and say you net $3 per
> hat net profit to you. Then direct the supplier in hong kong to simply sell
> all of the hats he can at the price of ($8 cost + $3 net profit to you) = $11
> to europeans. In fact, have him push these hats to every customer of his
> worldwide at this price.
>
> In this way, as mentioned, you make money while you sleep, and do not have
> the hassle of letter of credits, etc.
>
> Now, I am sure 2 concerns arise, why would he do this and how do I track him?
> Apparently shipping directly he has already agreed to; so we are just
> wondering why he will bill for us? Well, obviously he has the ability to
> bill now, he does so with you. So you are just directing him to bill the
> customer, not you. And he will do this becuase it is done all the time, it
> is standard operating procedure.
>
> And how do you track him for honesty? Well, is he a crook? Are you working
> with someone who you suspect is dishonest? If so, why? If not, then trust
> him. People in Germany and Hong Kong and Korea get rich delivering products
> to specification on time at a fair price. Honesty is a given, and a minimum
> requirement.
>
> There is a added benefit... if your product ever becomes super successful,
> this factory will have a vestd iinterest iin seeing no one knocks you off,
> since if this happens it is money out of YOUR suppliers pocket. He will use
> local methods to see to it no one rips off your design.
>
> So the simple solution is to confirm this with your supplier, connect the
> europeans and the supplier together, and then take a nap and make some money,
> the same net profit you would have with none of the work and none of the risk.
>
> The only other caveat is this $3 times X sales = income reportable to the
> IRS, even though it is left overseas.***